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	<title>Comments on: What Innovators Can Learn From Vegas Card Counters</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/</link>
	<description>Steve shares his unconventional approach on Business Innovation, Creativity, Goals and Critical Thinking</description>
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		<title>By: probabilities &#171; Selection &#171; Innovation Leadership Network</title>
		<link>http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-36277</link>
		<dc:creator>probabilities &#171; Selection &#171; Innovation Leadership Network</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 02:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-36277</guid>
		<description>[...] Shapiro has a really nice post on this topic too &#8211; where he distinguishes between playing safe using statistics and going for it using [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Shapiro has a really nice post on this topic too &#8211; where he distinguishes between playing safe using statistics and going for it using [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Dunphy</title>
		<link>http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34813</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Dunphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 08:57:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34813</guid>
		<description>Poor innovations succeed in the market if enough is spent to advertise and promote, driving out better innovations in the process. I think we always take a much too narrow view on the innovation process and fail to factor in this element to our thinking, as this article does too. Most organisations I work with generate far too many small projects that are not resourced, researched or promoted to succeed. This is easier than doing the depth of thinking and customer research required to spot true opportunites and deliver compelling solutions - I would suggest less is more and I think HP and others understand this need for innovation focus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Poor innovations succeed in the market if enough is spent to advertise and promote, driving out better innovations in the process. I think we always take a much too narrow view on the innovation process and fail to factor in this element to our thinking, as this article does too. Most organisations I work with generate far too many small projects that are not resourced, researched or promoted to succeed. This is easier than doing the depth of thinking and customer research required to spot true opportunites and deliver compelling solutions &#8211; I would suggest less is more and I think HP and others understand this need for innovation focus.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham Horton</title>
		<link>http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34749</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham Horton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34749</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s very misleading to set the piece under the premise &quot;probability or statistics&quot;?
in fact, it will be statistical arguments which 
prove the superiority (or rather, better applicability) of any one approach over another.

What you have written has nothing to do with probability or statistics per se. The first part of the article would more appropriately be titled &quot;Orientation towards the fringe instead of the center&quot;, and the second part, &quot;One-shot or evolutionary innovation processes?&quot;

Innovation Model #2 has been popularised by Google. One reason that it works for them, is that prototype Google products can be created very cheaply - by a single person working in their &quot;free&quot; hours. However, it is harder to see  how individuals or small groups can build innovative prototype nuclear submarines (for example) in their off-hours for a few thousand dollars.

Although it is currently popular in the blogosphere to deprecate incremental innovations and uphold disruptive innovations as the solution to all problems, let us not forget that it is the incremental innovations that pay the bills and provide the 100$ million needed to seed the next generation of innovation projects.

All styles of innovation process mentioned in the article have their justification - different goals require different approaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s very misleading to set the piece under the premise &#8220;probability or statistics&#8221;?<br />
in fact, it will be statistical arguments which<br />
prove the superiority (or rather, better applicability) of any one approach over another.</p>
<p>What you have written has nothing to do with probability or statistics per se. The first part of the article would more appropriately be titled &#8220;Orientation towards the fringe instead of the center&#8221;, and the second part, &#8220;One-shot or evolutionary innovation processes?&#8221;</p>
<p>Innovation Model #2 has been popularised by Google. One reason that it works for them, is that prototype Google products can be created very cheaply &#8211; by a single person working in their &#8220;free&#8221; hours. However, it is harder to see  how individuals or small groups can build innovative prototype nuclear submarines (for example) in their off-hours for a few thousand dollars.</p>
<p>Although it is currently popular in the blogosphere to deprecate incremental innovations and uphold disruptive innovations as the solution to all problems, let us not forget that it is the incremental innovations that pay the bills and provide the 100$ million needed to seed the next generation of innovation projects.</p>
<p>All styles of innovation process mentioned in the article have their justification &#8211; different goals require different approaches.</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;21 The Movie&#8221; and Innovation &#124; Stephen Shapiro on Innovation, Creativity, Goals &#38; Performance</title>
		<link>http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34732</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;21 The Movie&#8221; and Innovation &#124; Stephen Shapiro on Innovation, Creativity, Goals &#38; Performance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34732</guid>
		<description>[...] What Innovators Can Learn From Vegas Card Counters [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] What Innovators Can Learn From Vegas Card Counters [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Shapiro</title>
		<link>http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34717</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Shapiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34717</guid>
		<description>Antony, I think you are spot on!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Antony, I think you are spot on!</p>
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		<title>By: Antony Woods</title>
		<link>http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34713</link>
		<dc:creator>Antony Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34713</guid>
		<description>If you want to know the probability of who&#039;ll become president, forget about the statistical opinion polls, go to the bookmakers&#039; sites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want to know the probability of who&#8217;ll become president, forget about the statistical opinion polls, go to the bookmakers&#8217; sites.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Shapiro</title>
		<link>http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34699</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Shapiro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34699</guid>
		<description>D.D. I appreciate your taking the time to provide such a well thought out comment!

Yes, real life is more complex than my simplistic model.  And you raise some valid points.  I believe that the correct answer is in fact a blended approach.  Some bets are better fleshed out using a more traditional approach.  However I still contend that most bets will come through the â€œcard countingâ€ model I describe.

I agree that not all innovations can thrive on micro funding (your point #2).  Some may require more up front money.   And there are some &quot;big bets&quot; (like building a computer chip fabrication plant) that may require lots of analysis before moving too far forward. But the same general â€œscaling experimentâ€ philosophy can still prevail in most situations.  The key is to institutionalize a mindset of experimentation â€“ and to become masterful at defining small, valid, scalable experiments.  This takes practice.  

You will not lose â€œfirst mover advantageâ€ (your point #1) because an iterative approach is in fact considerably fasterâ€¦assuming the organization has streamlined the funding process and failure is not only tolerated, but embraced. The key is to address the cultural issues first before overlaying a new process like this (your points #3 and #4).  And I recognize that changing a process is a lot easier than changing a culture. This is why the status quo typically wins out.

I will continue to write on this topic.  In the meantime, if you are interested in reading about a wildly successful company who uses a similar approach, but â€œThe Science of Successâ€ by Charles Koch, the CEO of Koch Industries.  As readers of my blog and books know, Koch Industries is the largest privately held company in the world ($90B in revenues) and has grown seven times faster than the S&amp;P 500 for the past 40 years.  Their Market Based Management philosophy is all about using a â€œbuild it, try it, fix itâ€ approach â€“ creating a series of small experiments that grow over time.  Their philosophy is very â€œDarwinianâ€ in nature.  All reasonable ideas get seed money.  Good ideas get more and start to cannibalize ones that arenâ€™t performing as well.  

D.D.  Thanks so much for the thoughtful comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D.D. I appreciate your taking the time to provide such a well thought out comment!</p>
<p>Yes, real life is more complex than my simplistic model.  And you raise some valid points.  I believe that the correct answer is in fact a blended approach.  Some bets are better fleshed out using a more traditional approach.  However I still contend that most bets will come through the â€œcard countingâ€ model I describe.</p>
<p>I agree that not all innovations can thrive on micro funding (your point #2).  Some may require more up front money.   And there are some &#8220;big bets&#8221; (like building a computer chip fabrication plant) that may require lots of analysis before moving too far forward. But the same general â€œscaling experimentâ€ philosophy can still prevail in most situations.  The key is to institutionalize a mindset of experimentation â€“ and to become masterful at defining small, valid, scalable experiments.  This takes practice.  </p>
<p>You will not lose â€œfirst mover advantageâ€ (your point #1) because an iterative approach is in fact considerably fasterâ€¦assuming the organization has streamlined the funding process and failure is not only tolerated, but embraced. The key is to address the cultural issues first before overlaying a new process like this (your points #3 and #4).  And I recognize that changing a process is a lot easier than changing a culture. This is why the status quo typically wins out.</p>
<p>I will continue to write on this topic.  In the meantime, if you are interested in reading about a wildly successful company who uses a similar approach, but â€œThe Science of Successâ€ by Charles Koch, the CEO of Koch Industries.  As readers of my blog and books know, Koch Industries is the largest privately held company in the world ($90B in revenues) and has grown seven times faster than the S&#038;P 500 for the past 40 years.  Their Market Based Management philosophy is all about using a â€œbuild it, try it, fix itâ€ approach â€“ creating a series of small experiments that grow over time.  Their philosophy is very â€œDarwinianâ€ in nature.  All reasonable ideas get seed money.  Good ideas get more and start to cannibalize ones that arenâ€™t performing as well.  </p>
<p>D.D.  Thanks so much for the thoughtful comment.</p>
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		<title>By: d.d.</title>
		<link>http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34698</link>
		<dc:creator>d.d.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34698</guid>
		<description>Reality introduces complexity, as normal.
      .
(1) You may give up your &quot;first mover advantage.&quot; While you&#039;re doing 2-steps of testng &quot;low-risk, low-cost&quot; projects, the competition is watching. In a lot of innovative new product situations, the second and third entrants to the market quickly drive prices down to the &quot;competitive, average profits level.&quot;
       . 
(2) Some projects simply aren&#039;t anywhere near scalable to the nano level you&#039;re suggesting. $50,000 for a project that needs engineering work plus some kind of prototype to be created ... now you&#039;re talking about no more than perhaps 3 total man-months of effort in translating an idea into a product, less if any sales test is made. Some percent of your R&amp;D portfolio will fail simply because the money allocated (the bet) isn&#039;t big enough to give the idea a fair test.
             .
(3) Some more ideas will also perish irrespective of their merits because they get handed to the &quot;C&quot; team instead of the &quot;A&quot; team. With 200 projects to hand out, some have to be handed out to less capable, less visionary, less experienced people, and as a result the  work-up of the idea will be sub-optimal.   (Either hands-on innovators/developers or mgmt support.)
             .
(4) Ignores effects on internal motivations and incentives. 200 projects with 5 emerging at the end means that 98.5% of the original project teams were involved with &quot;losers.&quot; How do you reward and keep them happy? Most organizations punish people involved in failures; some at least don&#039;t actively punish; a very few have managed to reward people for (prudent) risk-taking, even if/when it doesn&#039;t pay off. In the second and future years, how do you motivate folks to give their best efforts, when the statistical reality is that any project they&#039;re handed has only a 2.5% chance of success? As a manager/engineer/geek, do you want to take on career assignments where you know up-front your chance of success is only 2.5% ??? What works as a risk-mitigating portfolio for the company does not (naturally and easily) work at the level of individual employees. Ignore that at your peril.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reality introduces complexity, as normal.<br />
      .<br />
(1) You may give up your &#8220;first mover advantage.&#8221; While you&#8217;re doing 2-steps of testng &#8220;low-risk, low-cost&#8221; projects, the competition is watching. In a lot of innovative new product situations, the second and third entrants to the market quickly drive prices down to the &#8220;competitive, average profits level.&#8221;<br />
       .<br />
(2) Some projects simply aren&#8217;t anywhere near scalable to the nano level you&#8217;re suggesting. $50,000 for a project that needs engineering work plus some kind of prototype to be created &#8230; now you&#8217;re talking about no more than perhaps 3 total man-months of effort in translating an idea into a product, less if any sales test is made. Some percent of your R&amp;D portfolio will fail simply because the money allocated (the bet) isn&#8217;t big enough to give the idea a fair test.<br />
             .<br />
(3) Some more ideas will also perish irrespective of their merits because they get handed to the &#8220;C&#8221; team instead of the &#8220;A&#8221; team. With 200 projects to hand out, some have to be handed out to less capable, less visionary, less experienced people, and as a result the  work-up of the idea will be sub-optimal.   (Either hands-on innovators/developers or mgmt support.)<br />
             .<br />
(4) Ignores effects on internal motivations and incentives. 200 projects with 5 emerging at the end means that 98.5% of the original project teams were involved with &#8220;losers.&#8221; How do you reward and keep them happy? Most organizations punish people involved in failures; some at least don&#8217;t actively punish; a very few have managed to reward people for (prudent) risk-taking, even if/when it doesn&#8217;t pay off. In the second and future years, how do you motivate folks to give their best efforts, when the statistical reality is that any project they&#8217;re handed has only a 2.5% chance of success? As a manager/engineer/geek, do you want to take on career assignments where you know up-front your chance of success is only 2.5% ??? What works as a risk-mitigating portfolio for the company does not (naturally and easily) work at the level of individual employees. Ignore that at your peril.</p>
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		<title>By: karl Staib l Your Happiness Matters</title>
		<link>http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34692</link>
		<dc:creator>karl Staib l Your Happiness Matters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.steveshapiro.com/2008/03/21/how-innovators-can-learn-from-vegas-card-counters/#comment-34692</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s a bad move too. The more that a company thinks they can focus on a few new ideas that are sure to work the more likely they&#039;ll miss the mark. All great innovators try many ways until a few emerge. I believe it was Edison who said something like 10,000 of his projects failed, but the ones that succeeded made him famous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s a bad move too. The more that a company thinks they can focus on a few new ideas that are sure to work the more likely they&#8217;ll miss the mark. All great innovators try many ways until a few emerge. I believe it was Edison who said something like 10,000 of his projects failed, but the ones that succeeded made him famous.</p>
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